Did Thistleclaw deserve to go to the Dark Forest?

[FadingEchoes]

WARNING: SPOILER ALERT
Thistleclaw is not evil
Yes, I just said that, because I think he isn't. I have reasons for saying this. Think back to when Thistleclaw was a kit - a cute ball of grey-mottled spikey fur. What did he want most of all? To become an apprentice and learn the ways of a warrior to protect his Clan, and when he was an apprentice, what did he want to do? Become a warrior to protect his Clan no matter what. Remember when he was a kit, and Snowpaw and Bluepaw were made apprentices? He ran over, though looking annoyed, and said he wanted to be an apprentice, because he was a better fighter than they'd ever be. What does that show? That shows loyalty, at least I sure think it does. If anything, throughout the book, and all books where Thistleclaw is mentioned, Bluestar makes him look evil, because she doesn't like him at all. Before ThunderClan went to ambush WindClan, what did Thistlekit try to do? Sneak out with the cats, just so he could fight to keep his Clan safe. Thistlekit was an adorable little bundle of loyalty.
As an apprentice, Thistlepaw was a hard-working cat, and when he nearly fought with a ShadowClan apprentice at a Gathering, he was provoked. Thistlepaw worked hard to make sure his Clan was well-fed and well protected, and he was a great warrior too.
Think about when Sweetpaw, Thistleclaw's sister, died. He insisted he bury her himself, that shows he loved his sister. Before you tell me Thistleclaw did tell Tigerpaw to kill Tiny, who later becomes Scourge, he didn't. He told Tigerpaw to defend their territory, and Tigerpaw took it way too far, now Thistleclaw could have stopped him and the fact that he didn't IS wrong, BUT it's a whole different ballgame than telling Tigerpaw to try to kill a kit.
Thistleclaw was devastated when his mate left her only kit alone, and when he blamed Bluefur? Please, how would you feel if someone had've been with someone you loved when they'd died, and did nothing except yell? Thistleclaw taught his son to become a great warrior and ThunderClan's former deputy, Whitestorm. Thistleclaw actually wouldn't have made a bad deputy, a loyal warrior who was not afraid to die for his Clan's safety. And remember how Bluestar said he died in a fight he'd started with another Clan? Who decides whether the cats fight or not? Well so did Russetfur, but I don't see anyone saying she's evil. That was one of the things that irked me the most about Bluestar - she hated Thistleclaw for no particular reason.
Feel free to debate any of these points, sorry for the long rant.
I don't mean to make any enemies with this post I just want to have a good discussion with all of you guys.

[Dust]

WARNING: SPOILER ALERT
Thistleclaw is not evil
Yes, I just said that, because I think he isn't. I have reasons for saying this. Think back to when Thistleclaw was a kit - a cute ball of grey-mottled spikey fur. What did he want most of all? To become an apprentice and learn the ways of a warrior to protect his Clan, and when he was an apprentice, what did he want to do? Become a warrior to protect his Clan no matter what. Remember when he was a kit, and Snowpaw and Bluepaw were made apprentices? He ran over, though looking annoyed, and said he wanted to be an apprentice, because he was a better fighter than they'd ever be. What does that show? That shows loyalty, at least I sure think it does. If anything, throughout the book, and all books where Thistleclaw is mentioned, Bluestar makes him look evil, because she doesn't like him at all. Before ThunderClan went to ambush WindClan, what did Thistlekit try to do? Sneak out with the cats, just so he could fight to keep his Clan safe. Thistlekit was an adorable little bundle of loyalty.
As an apprentice, Thistlepaw was a hard-working cat, and when he nearly fought with a ShadowClan apprentice at a Gathering, he was provoked. Thistlepaw worked hard to make sure his Clan was well-fed and well protected, and he was a great warrior too.
Think about when Sweetpaw, Thistleclaw's sister, died. He insisted he bury her himself, that shows he loved his sister. Before you tell me Thistleclaw did tell Tigerpaw to kill Tiny, who later becomes Scourge, he didn't. He told Tigerpaw to defend their territory, and Tigerpaw took it way too far, now Thistleclaw could have stopped him and the fact that he didn't IS wrong, BUT it's a whole different ballgame than telling Tigerpaw to try to kill a kit.
Thistleclaw was devastated when his mate left her only kit alone, and when he blamed Bluefur? Please, how would you feel if someone had've been with someone you loved when they'd died, and did nothing except yell? Thistleclaw taught his son to become a great warrior and ThunderClan's former deputy, Whitestorm. Thistleclaw actually wouldn't have made a bad deputy, a loyal warrior who was not afraid to die for his Clan's safety. And remember how Bluestar said he died in a fight he'd started with another Clan? Who decides whether the cats fight or not? Well so did Russetfur, but I don't see anyone saying she's evil. That was one of the things that irked me the most about Bluestar - she hated Thistleclaw for no particular reason.
Feel free to debate any of these points, sorry for the long rant.
I don't mean to make any enemies with this post I just want to have a good discussion with all of you guys.

Thistleclaw is in the Dark Forest because he trained in the Dark Forest plain and simple. I don't remember much since it's been a long time since I read Bluestar's Prophecy, but despite everything else, the reason he's not in Starclan is because he defied them and trained in the Dark Forest.

[BEAR.]

Thistleclaw is in the Dark Forest because he trained in the Dark Forest plain and simple. I don't remember much since it's been a long time since I read Bluestar's Prophecy, but despite everything else, the reason he's not in Starclan is because he defied them and trained in the Dark Forest.


i believe it was revealed in crookedstar's promise!

i don't really consider the dark forest training to be a viable reason to send someone there, given a lot of cats in the series did the same -- it's more likely he was sent there for killing a cat while training there (don't remember where it was shown but i believe the cat was houndtooth) and also condoning the harm of a kit (scourge). while all trespassers should be challenged, it was out of line for him to let tigerpaw attack him (and more so to be willing to let him severely injure him.)

[Crow]

there was also the whole situation with spottedleaf, which was.. disturbing, even if realistic for cats, as they're essentially humans as they're written in the books.

[Dust]

i believe it was revealed in crookedstar's promise!

i don't really consider the dark forest training to be a viable reason to send someone there, given a lot of cats in the series did the same -- it's more likely he was sent there for killing a cat while training there (don't remember where it was shown but i believe the cat was houndtooth) and also condoning the harm of a kit (scourge). while all trespassers should be challenged, it was out of line for him to let tigerpaw attack him (and more so to be willing to let him severely injure him.)

I just bought Crooked's Promise! And that's a fair assessment. Bramblestar was previously in the DF as well, but retained a Leader (with 9 nines granted) status. My perspective on it, as far as Thistle and Blue; Blue redeemed herself while Thistle never did.

there was also the whole situation with spottedleaf, which was.. disturbing, even if realistic for cats, as they're essentially humans as they're written in the books.

Yeaaaaaaah, that's generally my viewpoint as well. While realistically a cat at 6 months old has reached sexual maturity, it's painted in the books like apprentices are child/teenage aged due to their humanization. Also a fun fact, apprentices are actually the same size,
of not a bit smaller, than their mentors due to them being a "full-grown cat!"

[Captain]

I watched a Thistleclaw AMV a long time ago and the YouTuber who made it, who is known as Moonlightnebula, made a long document explaining how he isn't an evil as he seems. I, for one, love Thistleclaw, being one of my favorite characters, though I love most characters that are often seen as evil - including Scourge and Hawkfrost. I thought I would put this here to help the argument.

[CLICK THIS] (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OsZ3afP1wtUF0evJy6DDsPpMoToWOo4xYBTU3Ws-FwA/edit?usp=sharing)

[Dust]

I watched a Thistleclaw AMV a long time ago and the YouTuber who made it, who is known as Moonlightnebula, made a long document explaining how he isn't an evil as he seems. I, for one, love Thistleclaw, being one of my favorite characters, though I love most characters that are often seen as evil - including Scourge and Hawkfrost. I thought I would put this here to help the argument.

[CLICK THIS] (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OsZ3afP1wtUF0evJy6DDsPpMoToWOo4xYBTU3Ws-FwA/edit?usp=sharing)

I will point out, unless it was written by someone who was completely neutral about Thistle/Blue (which it is apparent it's not), the doc is extremely one-sided about the characters. You can tell in the way it's written that the author is highlighting Bluestar's flaws and mistakes, while praising Thistleclaw and ignoring the reason why he is in the DF in the first place. Of course Thistle is a good character as far as character building, stages of grief go, but that doesn't excuse his actions in Spotted's book, especially since the author is using the other special editions to make their point. That also doesn't mean people aren't allowed to love him. You can be an evil/abrasive character and still care about your family or protect your clan. The author also mentions grief a lot regarding Thistle (ie. losing his sister, mate, etc.) but does not mention Bluefur/star's grieving period. Either way, it was an interesting read!

Here's a few of my own videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UptdZH04IM) I think people should give a watch (https://youtu.be/eqthrN19o5w?t=39)!

[FadingEchoes]

I haven't read Spotted's book, so that may be why I don't see Thistleclaw as that bad. I think he definitely messed up a whole lot, but Ivypool and Blossomfall also trained in the Dark Forest, and I think it's at least possible Thistleclaw thought it would make him a better warrior for his clan.
As far as Tiny goes, I really blame Tigerpaw for that one, while Thistleclaw definitely could have not let Tigerpaw go so far, teaching your apprentice to chase off intruders, whether they're "harmless" or not, is what warriors are supposed to do. In the first book, when Graypaw is chasing Rusty away, after the fight he says, "You're lucky I'm not a full warrior, or I'd have given you some real wounds to think about."(I'm paraphrasing, I haven't read the books in a while.) And later on in the book Firepaw chases Smudge off before realizing it was his old friend. All in all I certainly don't think Thistleclaw is a saint, but all of his truly Evil actions seemed to have happened after he was sent to the Dark Forest. But again, I haven't read Spotted's book so I'm probably missing a couple things.
there was also the whole situation with spottedleaf, which was.. disturbing, even if realistic for cats, as they're essentially humans as they're written in the books.
As far as that goes, I think about Fernpaw and Dustpelt, just because Fernpaw didn't return his advances doesn't make it less weird. Although I do agree that he should have left her alone, their age isn't exactly the problem, consent is.

[Crow]

As far as that goes, I think about Fernpaw and Dustpelt, just because Fernpaw didn't return his advances doesn't make it less weird. Although I do agree that he should have left her alone, their age isn't exactly the problem, consent is.
it wasn't just the age problem (note that i don't support dustfern either), it was also the manipulation aspect of their relationship.

[Role]

Kk without reading any comments, heres my thing:

Did he deserve it?

We can't be sure. There isn't enough to be told about Thistleclaw. Yes, he trained in the DS, but so did ivypool, blossomfall, birchfall, etc. However, contradicting what i just said, he accepted the evilness from the DS instead of slowly rejecting it. Bluestar described Thistleclaw as bloodthirsty and cruel, but we don't know if that is true. Bluestar had been mentally unstable ever since her mother and sister had died. Perhaps she twisted it, or maybe she's right. We never saw Thistleclaw up close and personal. Yes, we saw him interact with Snowfur and Bluefur, but what was going through his head?
Thistleclaw trained Tigerpaw (soon to be the infamous Tigerstar) to be fierce and relentless, as shown in Scourge's manga. Thistleclaw egged him on as he beat up a kittypet kitten, but Bluefur, deputy at the time (i think), forced them to stop. All in all, this reveals that Thistleclaw had been influencing Tigerpaw badly, thus this makes him one of the cruelest cats in history. Now is that bad? Kinda.
Maybe Thistleclaw didn't realize how horrible Tigerpaw had grown as he trained him. Maybe he was blinded by ambition, much like Tigerclaw.


Idk man
My train of thought just disappeared. :p
Ill read the other comments now

[FadingEchoes]

Here's a few of my own videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UptdZH04IM) I think people should give a watch (https://youtu.be/eqthrN19o5w?t=39)!
LZRD WZRD is great. Though I do disagree that Thistleclaw is in DF because he looks like that.(And I think LZRD was kidding.) Anyways, the reason Thistle looks like that is because he was in the dark forest, if you look at his other pictures,(Particularly his warrior one.) he actually looks kinda cool.

[Dust]

LZRD WZRD is great. Though I do disagree that Thistleclaw is in DF because he looks like that.(And I think LZRD was kidding.) Anyways, the reason Thistle looks like that is because he was in the dark forest, if you look at his other pictures,(Particularly his warrior one.) he actually looks kinda cool.

Ha, yeah no, I wasn't saying he was in the DF because he looked like that, just thought it was a relevant video! I'm gonna have to agree w/ King here and say he's in the DF for killing another cat in the DF (and thus never redeeming himself).

[FadingEchoes]

Ha, yeah no, I wasn't saying he was in the DF because he looked like that, just thought it was a relevant video! I'm gonna have to agree w/ King here and say he's in the DF for killing another cat in the DF (and thus never redeeming himself).
Yeah I suppose that makes sense, though I still think he didn't deserve to be there. Especially because Ashfur is in STC. Speaking of redemption, I really wish this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16YxXn5-czY would have happened. The part at the end where she talks about an alternative ending, I love it.

[Crow]

Yeah I suppose that makes sense, though I still think he didn't deserve to be there. Especially because Ashfur is in STC. Speaking of redemption, I really wish this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16YxXn5-czY would have happened. The part at the end where she talks about an alternative ending, I love it.
ashfur never killed anyone (that i know of)..? he threatened to, but still, he wasn't guilty of murder

[FadingEchoes]

ashfur never killed anyone (that i know of)..? he threatened to, but still, he wasn't guilty of murder
Spoiler Alert: He did try to kill Holly Jay and Lion.
Edit: At least I think he did, did I imagine that?

[Hopekit]

Thistleclaw is in the Dark Forest because he trained in the Dark Forest plain and simple. I don't remember much since it's been a long time since I read Bluestar's Prophecy, but despite everything else, the reason he's not in Starclan is because he defied them and trained in the Dark Forest.


As much as I see the point you are getting to, I don't see training in the Dark Forest a reason for going there. Training in the Dark Forest just means you're trained how to be merciless and kill cats easily. From my view, Thistle meant well when he tried to join them because he was looking for training that would make him grow to be the best warrior he could be for his clan. I see that as loyalty, not something that should be described as a reason for not going to StarClan. In addition, I've seen cats that trained in the Dark Forest go to StarClan.

I don't see the real reason Thistleclaw went to the Dark Forest. In my opinion, he deserves to go to StarClan, unless he doesn't want to be there. Thistle, in my perspective, 100% DID NOT tell Tigerpaw, by any means, to kill Tiny (otherwise referred to as Scourge). He told Tigerpaw to defend their territory, and Tigerpaw took it way too far. As FadingEchoes said, Thistle could have stopped him and the fact that he didn't is sort of wrong but not evil, but it's a whole different story when some cat asks you to kill a kit. It was Tigerpaw's decision, and he took it much too far but Thistleclaw isn't to be blamed for Tigerpaw's wrongdoings. When he blamed Bluefur? Well, how would you feel if someone you loved left you? Besides, it's normal when someone's not thinking straight when they're sad or something, so blaming Bluefur was completely normal. Now, calling Thistleclaw evil for that? It wasn't that he was lying. His mate left him, what did you expect him to do? Blaming Bluefur, from my view, was his only way to express his depression. Plus, Thistleclaw was showing loyalty to his mate. He loved her, so how could he not express his anger, especially on someone that hated him? I see Thistleclaw's accusations towards Bluefur, and his reaction, for that matter, normal. He was obviously devastated when his mate left their one kit alone. What type of cat could blame him for that? Every cat wants to be a good parent, and when his mate left him he was depressed. Thistleclaw cared and taught his son. Thistle would not have made a bad deputy. He was loyal to his clan and caring for some, unafraid of death if it benefited his Clan.And remember how Bluestar said he died in a fight he'd started with another Clan? Well, who decides who fights or not? Russetfur did the same, and no one ain't calling er evil or saying she should go to the Dark Forest. Bluestar hated Thistleclaw for no particular reason, which is only one of the reason I don't necessarily like her. Thistleclaw wasn't evil; I don't see why he deserved to spend his days in the Dark Forest.

Sorry for this very long rant. I wanted to get my thoughts out about when he was a warrior. I didn't do the kit stage or apprentice stage since it's already a bit long.

[Hopekit]

ashfur never killed anyone (that i know of)..? he threatened to, but still, he wasn't guilty of murder

To be honest, you have a point - he wasn't exactly guilty of murdering any cat. The fact that he is in StarClan still bugs me, though.

Ashfur was threatening to kill Squirrelflight's kits. He did not respect the fact that Squirrelflight had her own brain, her own decisions, her own rights. He wanted to force her to be mates with him, to have kits with him and let him be the father of them. When he found that she had had kits with Bramble, he was furious. Now, I understand the reason he was furious. However, in my opinion, he had taken it too far. When they were stuck in the middle of the fire, Squirrelflight, Ashfur, and Squirrel's kits, Ashfur threatened to kill her kits simply because she wanted to be mates with some other cat and didn't love him the way he loved her. Killing was too threatening a punishment for loving Bramble. Now, how would he have liked it if she had been mates with him but only faked her love for him? That would have been worse, to be honest. She did him a favor by showing her true love for Bramble and not faking her love for Ash just to make him happy. Lying would have only made him even more furious.

In my opinion, Ash shouldn't be in StarClan. He shouldn't necessarily be in the Dark Forest either, though, but he wanted to kill Jayfeather, Lion, and Holly just because Squirrel had a choice who to be mates with.

[Hopekit]

Spoiler Alert: He did try to kill Holly Jay and Lion.
Edit: At least I think he did, did I imagine that?

No, you're not imagining anything.

From my knowledge, there was a fire in ThunderClan and Squirrel was leading Holly, Jay, And Lion out but got stuck. That was where Ashfur met them. He threatened to kill them and tried to force them closer to the flames, from what I remember. Read my previous post. He wanted to kill them, and force Squirrel to be mates with him, because he loved her. However, when he found she didn't love him the way he loved her, and when she had chosen Bramble over him, he didn't respect her decision or her choice to be mates with whom she truly loved, he took it too far and when the fire came to be, threatened to kill her kits.

[Dust]

As much as I see the point you are getting to, I don't see training in the Dark Forest a reason for going there. Training in the Dark Forest just means you're trained how to be merciless and kill cats easily. From my view, Thistle meant well when he tried to join them because he was looking for training that would make him grow to be the best warrior he could be for his clan. I see that as loyalty, not something that should be described as a reason for not going to StarClan. In addition, I've seen cats that trained in the Dark Forest go to StarClan.

I don't see the real reason Thistleclaw went to the Dark Forest. In my opinion, he deserves to go to StarClan, unless he doesn't want to be there. Thistle, in my perspective, 100% DID NOT tell Tigerpaw, by any means, to kill Tiny (otherwise referred to as Scourge). He told Tigerpaw to defend their territory, and Tigerpaw took it way too far. As FadingEchoes said, Thistle could have stopped him and the fact that he didn't is sort of wrong but not evil, but it's a whole different story when some cat asks you to kill a kit. It was Tigerpaw's decision, and he took it much too far but Thistleclaw isn't to be blamed for Tigerpaw's wrongdoings. When he blamed Bluefur? Well, how would you feel if someone you loved left you? Besides, it's normal when someone's not thinking straight when they're sad or something, so blaming Bluefur was completely normal. Now, calling Thistleclaw evil for that? It wasn't that he was lying. His mate left him, what did you expect him to do? Blaming Bluefur, from my view, was his only way to express his depression. Plus, Thistleclaw was showing loyalty to his mate. He loved her, so how could he not express his anger, especially on someone that hated him? I see Thistleclaw's accusations towards Bluefur, and his reaction, for that matter, normal. He was obviously devastated when his mate left their one kit alone. What type of cat could blame him for that? Every cat wants to be a good parent, and when his mate left him he was depressed. Thistleclaw cared and taught his son. Thistle would not have made a bad deputy. He was loyal to his clan and caring for some, unafraid of death if it benefited his Clan.And remember how Bluestar said he died in a fight he'd started with another Clan? Well, who decides who fights or not? Russetfur did the same, and no one ain't calling er evil or saying she should go to the Dark Forest. Bluestar hated Thistleclaw for no particular reason, which is only one of the reason I don't necessarily like her. Thistleclaw wasn't evil; I don't see why he deserved to spend his days in the Dark Forest.

Sorry for this very long rant. I wanted to get my thoughts out about when he was a warrior. I didn't do the kit stage or apprentice stage since it's already a bit long.


I've said it like 5 times xD; I agree w/ King that the reason Thistle is in the DF is because he killed a cat in the DF and not just by purely training there, and beyond that, he never redeemed himself. I'll eventually make a rant I just don't want to type it out OTL

[aleka!]

/O/

Finally someone else actually sees Thistle as a good cat, because unlike about every cat that went to the dark forest, he never actually killed anyone. Not to mention that he was kind of killed for no reason, tbh.
Like seriously, he was really only a little bit aggressive during patrols apparently, and so was Mudclaw, and not to mention how Mudclaw did try to take over leadership in WindClan, and he still went too StarClan. Basically, the same thing with Ashfur. After all, he did try to murder his mate and foster kits in a fire, ans he somehow gets a pass for that? Like seriously.

[BEAR.]

/O/

Finally someone else actually sees Thistle as a good cat, because unlike about every cat that went to the dark forest, he never actually killed anyone. Not to mention that he was kind of killed for no reason, tbh.
Like seriously, he was really only a little bit aggressive during patrols apparently, and so was Mudclaw, and not to mention how Mudclaw did try to take over leadership in WindClan, and he still went too StarClan. Basically, the same thing with Ashfur. After all, he did try to murder his mate and foster kits in a fire, ans he somehow gets a pass for that? Like seriously.


he killed an unnamed tabby while training in the dark forest.

mudclaw went to starclan because he honestly thought he was following the warrior code. it was the word of two thunderclan cats and their windclan buddy without any other witnesses.

it was tallstar's wrongdoing for how he handled changing deputies. mudclaw wasn't actually doing anything wrong.

[FadingEchoes]

he killed an unnamed tabby while training in the dark forest.

mudclaw went to starclan because he honestly thought he was following the warrior code. it was the word of two thunderclan cats and their windclan buddy without any other witnesses.

it was tallstar's wrongdoing for how he handled changing deputies. mudclaw wasn't actually doing anything wrong.
Yeah, I think Mudclaw did deserve to go to StarClan, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcrO3AYK-SE This goes into that brilliantly.(At least I think so :D)

[Hopekit]

I've said it like 5 times xD; I agree w/ King that the reason Thistle is in the DF is because he killed a cat in the DF and not just by purely training there, and beyond that, he never redeemed himself. I'll eventually make a rant I just don't want to type it out OTL
Well, my opinion about the thing that the reason he's in the DF because he killed a cat in the DF is that the cat he killed shouldn't have been training there in the first place. That cat's fault xD Sorry for referring to them as "them", I forgot which cat.

[FadingEchoes]

Well, my opinion about the thing that the reason he's in the DF because he killed a cat in the DF is that the cat he killed shouldn't have been training there in the first place. That cat's fault xD Sorry for referring to them as "them", I forgot which cat.
That line of reasoning is a bit interesting. Although I see what you mean.

[BEAR.]

Well, my opinion about the thing that the reason he's in the DF because he killed a cat in the DF is that the cat he killed shouldn't have been training there in the first place. That cat's fault xD Sorry for referring to them as "them", I forgot which cat.

ideally, neither of them should have been there.

at the end of the day, it boils down to intentions. thistleclaw didn't kill her because of self defense, or to protect others (with a note these are the only real acceptable reasons behind killing someone); he killed her because he could.

had thistleclaw been in a situation where he was coerced into killing the she-cat - whether his own life or whitepaw's is on the line - it would've been a different story and it's likely he would've been accepted into starclan (if vicky didn't make it her goal to put him in there). but thistleclaw had the choice of not killing her at the minimal cost of facing off against mapleshade and losing his training there, and he didn't take it.

he was too sucked into the ideology of being the best warrior by killing his opponents and shedding blood. minus the influence of the dark forest, he probably would've been an excellent warrior and leader, but ultimately he allowed himself to be manipulated and twisted to the point of no return.